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 Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:03 pm
Ok.This is a VERY diverce subject, but I want to know others input on this. Abortions.
Do you think they are unpagan?Do you think it should be legal? Explain your answer with your own opinions and facts as well. I ask that since this is a VERY diverse thing ,even in this religion, that you respect everyones opinions on this matter,and not try to belittle someone( I am sure the crew members woudl take care of it in a jiffy if it happnes, but we are already busy enough as it is).
I myself beign a gay male ,and all, don't think it should even be up to discussion. I think it is a womens RIGHT to choose what happens to her body and that it should be legal. And as far as being "Un-Pagan" I think that it isn't either..I think it just is..I mean people have gotten abortions in the past for as long as people have reproduced.
It is a womens RIGHT to choose what happens to her body and that we as people have no right to say what they can or can not do to their bodies. And abortion is not murder , murder is the killing of a living being, and since a fetus is not a living being until the 28th week of the pregnecy ( proven my medical studies.) then as long as it is done within that time then it is not illeagle or murder. Late term abortion is not concidered murder..atleast inmy eyes. I am sorry if there has been a thread like this before, I am just wanting to get some people talking in the group..I hope everyone will be polite and curdious when discussing this.
Peace heart heart
Leo
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:21 pm
Me being also a gay male, I won't have to worry about this affecting me unless it were something that were to be a God-child. I belive also that it is the right of the woman to choose what happens to her self. In Wicca we and paganism we believe in "Life- death- and rebirth" not "life-death-reinsemination". So, I believe that your life truly begins at birth when you are seperated from your mother and can do things on your own. But- as I did mention, I will not be having a child anytime soon or being in connection with a spouse who will have a partner so I don't have a say in it. I believe that it should be up to the woman who is pregnant. As for being un-pagan, I don't really think it is. Women have been having abortions in one fashion or another for ages. It may verywell be breaking the Wiccan tenant of the Rede but women who often have abortions pay for it in some way or other. It's a calculated risk. If the women would rather have the child and give it up for adoption then they can, that's their choice no one's stoping the mothers who want to put their child up for adoption. Some might concider adoption 'abandonment'. So, take your pick. Would you rather choose to abandon your child or would you rather stop the growth of the fetus and then remove it? It's "bad" no matter how you slice it but some women are consious that their living environment isn't suitable for their newborn so they remove it in one of the two options they have. Personally, If I were a woman, I wouldn't want to bring a child into this world, in fear that it might be "different" and therefor be astranged from society. No one wants that and I wouldn't wish it for my child. I'm pro-choice.
heart AffrenSama
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:14 am
Again with the "Here's the societal issue, is it Pagan or Un-Pagan?" I think, in general, that issues are not with or against any particular belief system, that ideas are simply with or against personal opinion, because when it comes right down to it your are going to make up your own mind regardless of your faith, though of course, your beliefs are going to factor into that.
That aside, the abortion debate is so convoluted. You have to consider if it is really killing, at what point does an embryo become a human being, and so on. Personally, I think that once a fetus is viable (meaning that it can survive on its own outside of the womb) then it is no longer a cell, it is human. If you abort the fetus at that point, it's murder. In that instance, I would say that abortion is Un-Pagan, because "An Harm None" definately includes murder.
I believe it is a woman's right to choose, and my personal opinions on the matter have never and will never influence my opinion towards a personal who may have had a late-term abortion. My opinion and my beliefs pertain only to me. Far be it from my right to judge someone else; maybe she was raped, maybe she had to abort for medical reasons; in any case, the other person's right to choose trumps my opinion any time.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:18 am
I am glad to see that I am not the only one.lol.And I am also glad to see you gave both sides..as to why it migth be "Un-Pagan" and why it doesnt affect paganism.
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:09 am
if ur prolife, ur prolife. if ur prochoice, ur prochoice. why religion gets dragged into everything i don't know... but it pisses me off.
if u want my oppinion, i'm prochoice w/ heavily gaurded restrictions.
i believe that not anyone should be allowed to get an abortion.
the women i believe that should be allowed to are the rape victoms, & women who just couldn't help the fact they got pregnant.
on the other hand i don't believe that just because u had sex & didn't intend on having a baby, u should be allowed to get rid of it. it's called due process & reaping what u sow. u make a mistake, DEAL WITH IT! don't go hiding behind an ammendment just so u don't have to take responsibility for ur actions. & that includes all the 15 & minus year old sluts running around. tell ur boyfriends to keep it in their pants because i can guarentee that they're not gonna stick around very long whether u get pregnant or not!
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:16 pm
I'm actually against abortion. I feel that even though the abortion takes place before the child is even developed it is still taking away the possibility of another human-being having life. I know that sounds a little abstract, but it's how I feel. I just think we should let nature take its course. At least when it comes to this issue. I also feel that the mother should have a choice as to whether or not she raises the child. If the mother is a young teenage girl, as so many are, than I do feel that adoption might be better than keeping the child; however, I also feel that it is better for the mother to have the child and put it up for adoption than to take away that future person's life altogether. After all, that spirit, if it is let into the world, might bring happiness into someone else's life if not the mother's life. Does that make any sense?
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:45 pm
Yes I see your point, and as I have said this won't be a debate thread either, it is just hear to see peoples views..and I am glad to see that people are posting.
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:23 pm
life is sacred, a child can be raised by adopted parents, harm not.
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:34 pm
Religion is a complex thing, that defines and drives each individual's moral code. Paganism is a broad range of beliefs, as is any faith, really, and you'll have people inside that path who believe vastly different things. There will be those who believe you shouldn't harm anything, and strive their whole life to protect and aid any who hurt. There are those who will believe that it is good for a price, and if that price is a small life that hasn't really been given worth, then so be it. Some people will believe so strongly in free-will that they'll demand it to be legal or deemed "right" and they won't even see it as a sacrifice for free will, but a neccesary action.
The base of this issue is the less and less respect we as humans are giving to life. An unborn baby is a life, and we are turning innocent women into grief stricken murderers for the sake of free will. We have free will, aye, but in the end, no one is going to respect the choices you make if they lead only to the pain of others. It's her body. It's her choice. It's her baby. It's her parasite, I've even heard said. But do you know what it's not? It's not her life. It's not her soul...It's someone else's.
We've forgotten completely that each thing, living and breathing, and changing, has a soul, a spirit, unique to themselves, and precious to God, to the earth, and on some level, to each other soul out there. In the lowest level, we are not hurting the mothers...we are not hurting the unborn children...we are hurting our Creator. With love and precision, our lives were made, were crafted, were breathed into with Life. If we do not value that, God still does, and if we as individuals, or pagans, or followers of any faith, walk with a God, or especially the Creator, we are turning our face from the most basic of Truths: we are treasured, as children of the Divine. How...can we not respect that?
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:55 pm
MortalAngel I'm actually against abortion. I feel that even though the abortion takes place before the child is even developed it is still taking away the possibility of another human-being having life. I know that sounds a little abstract, but it's how I feel. I just think we should let nature take its course. At least when it comes to this issue. I also feel that the mother should have a choice as to whether or not she raises the child. If the mother is a young teenage girl, as so many are, than I do feel that adoption might be better than keeping the child; however, I also feel that it is better for the mother to have the child and put it up for adoption than to take away that future person's life altogether. After all, that spirit, if it is let into the world, might bring happiness into someone else's life if not the mother's life. Does that make any sense? i completely agree with you i have a one year old son and i cant inagene anyone wanting to kill a baby even if they cant see it yet however i dont see that abortion has any thing to do with religoin just personal veiw
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:32 pm
I think that it is the woman's choice. Nothing else. Again. When you are left from your mother then you live. When you are breathing on your own then that is the true release and entrance of life. So yea. I am kinda half and half on abortion. Personally I think this is more along the means of society itself then religious matters. Even Though Christians think other wise.
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:48 am
Being a straight female who's not ready for children and who had a pregnancy scare literally 2 weeks ago. I think my boyfriend put it perfectly when I chose to get the emergency pill.
"It's our baby, but it's your body." He offered to pay the £25 ($50) for the pill which I got free because I'm under 25.
A child is a blessing, but it can be a curse if you're not ready. It's better to have an abortion that have a miserable life, in which the child would also be miserable.
I explained to my boyfriend at the time that I'd be willing to get an abortion for this reason. I also said that it wasn't because I didn't want children, it's that I couldn't deal with them yet.
Also the bond between mother and child is so strong that I'd never have been able to give up a baby, even if it made me miserable and possibly suicial.
I think people who haven't been in that situation, should have no right to judge those who have reguardless of their religion.
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Matron_ofthe_Herd Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:17 pm
Un-Wiccan? Perhaps, simply because of the 'An ye harm none' but I don't think it could be called un-pagan in general just because pagan is an umbrella term so it would really depend on if you are claiming a certain tradition that is opposed of it.
As far as the question of it being 'evil' or not.. personally, I rather dislike the term evil as I feel that it is more of a Christian notion. I don't see anything as absolute 0 evil or 0 good either. I feel that if something appears to be so, one is not looking hard enough to see the other aspect present no matter how small it may be.
So, automatically I wouldn't not say it is evil. Now, is it the wrong choice to make? I would say it very much depends on the situation and every aspect involved. However, in the end I do think it should be a decision that only the mother can make. What of the father? I do think the mother should consult the father out of respect and hear out his opinion on the matter but even he, should not force her to carry out the pregnancy if she is determined to end it. If her reasons are selfish and immature let her deal with her own repercussions and the karma to come from it. Her business is her own and despite when a person feels a fetus is considered it's own person, soul, and life, it develops in a woman's body and is dependent upon it, therefore in my view the woman should have the final say as to what to do with her body. This doesn't excuse her or make it right or wrong but simply how I view things. I don't feel it's appropriate for any one else to decide if another's personal actions are morally correct.
However, I do understand that some general moral standards/rules a.k.a laws, help keep society in check. I think this is why abortion is such a controversial issue. There is a huge debate of morals that comes into play.
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Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:05 am
Yes.. Matron has made an excellent point! *Cough*cough* as always ^_^*cough*cough* Now...Morals, that is an interesting subject, I could get into a VERY long and hard discussion about morals and their place in our judicial system lol(as in here in the US, sorry I honestly don't know how they play out in other nations government xd sweatdrop )
Peace and Blessing
Leo
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:24 pm
While I have very mixed feelings about this - in terms of religion, emotional health, and freedom - I do believe that the woman has a right to her body.
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Reply
